THE *GAY* SHIPS

Do me and my bisexualism have an opinion?

Good

Anya/Buffy
Spike/Graham
Xander/Graham
Oz/Giles
Faith/Cordy
Fat Tony/Buffy Wink
Spike/Buffy
Wes/Fred
Fred/Cordy

Serious question here.....I loved W/O and I was a little shocked when Joss started the 'Willow is gay' thing. I think I would have accepted it better if there had been some hints along the way but I don't recall any, do you? I found it easier to accept Willow as bi...someone who fell in love with 'the person' and not the gender.

Oh...and if you liked F/G then how did you feel about Fred and Wes?

Myth - the only hint I can really think of with the 'Willow is gay' thing was her vampire self. Confused I like to think she did fall in love with the person, not the gender. and Kennedy was just... there.

I thought F/G was sweet at first; then it kinda died. I really liked the idea of Gunn/Gwen, but of course that was dropped. Evil or Very Mad I loved F/W... *mourns*

my favorite ships:
Spike/Buffy
Buffy/Faith
Anya/Xander
Wes/Fred
Andrew/ any guy really. he's GAY.
Willow/Tara

I'm not very unconventional, I guess. I'm pretty happy with the canon of this show. it's really OTHER fandoms that I get into the slash. Wink

Oh, Kitten. You are WONDERFUL. Go check my Banya board to see what you prize is.

*skirries over*

Spangel
Wen(wes,gunn)
wennor
angun
saddly, i found an entire page once built upon......Anner(angel, connor...how disturbed is THAT?)

i like my men together! ....i need help!

Spangel!

I could see that. Wink

Anner??? *shudders* that's just... wrong.

INCEST

that's like, Cordy/Connor (and I actually found one person who ships that last night.... ew).

sab - if you have any good Spangel links feel free to share. Cool

Tech, Cordy/Conner isn't incest, just feels like it. It is a legit ship, kinda popular. I like the 'Conner goes back to hell and makes hanky panky wiith a freaky demon' ship.

Spangel is icky SPIKE/GRAHAM

Faith/Buffy all the way...or Faith and me, but that doesn't really count.
Also, loved Willow/Tara.
Willow/Kennedy was kinda alright....Iyari is quite attractive...and who can forget the neck licking....and the pierced tongue....damn that was quite the episode...

NO SPANDER
SPIKE/GRAHAM

Char...

Me.... I love Graham, especially NC-17 fics with Spike. Not that I READ NC-17, since it's illegal and all. *nervous chuckle*

I'm not really into gay ships unless it's Froam (Frodo/Sam), but I've always liked the idea of Andlorlem (Andrew/Lorne/Clem)

Dude, what are you people talking about?

Spike/Drusilla - Nuff said.
Angel/Darla - She said it, they are soulmates....Or not.
Cordy/Gunn - Wouldn't they be cute together? That is my fave Angel ship.
Fred/Willow - Fred is so not straight.
Xander/Anya - I can't see either of them with anyone else...Maybe Spike.
Faith/Buffy - Them Slayers gotta stick together.
Wes/Lilah - They were in love it just wasn't the pancake kisses more like handcuffs and chains but still love!
Giles/Jenny - Old people can be so cute sometimes. They were so adorable.
Riley/Sam or Graham - Those are the people that stuck by him and didn't trample on his soul like a super strong blonde I will not name.

Buffy/Angel (duh)
Willow/Xander
Willow/Oz
Willow/Tara
Willow/Kennedy (I actually liked Kennedy. She kept Willow grounded and was there for her when she needed her)
Spike/Angel
Spike/Buffy/Angel
Spike/Xander
Jonathan/Andrew
Jonathan/The Twins Very Happy
Jonathan/Magic Bone Laughing
Connor/Dawn
Fred/Wes
Cordy/Xander
Anya/Xander (I like 'em both!)
Giles/Jenny
Giles/Joyce (I like 'em both!)
Anya/Spike
Tara/Willow/Oz (I've read a few fanfics that put the three together, and I actually like 'em like that!)
Buffy/Faith
Spike/Dru
Dru/Darla
Cordy/Doyle

OK, since this has turned to "what's your ship?", I'll post my favourites...

Spike\Dru (one of the best written couples in history)
Angelus\Darla\Dru
Wed
Cordy\Doyle (how could you guys forget that???)
Xander\Anya
Xander\Willow
Xander\Andrew
Xander\Cordy
Willow\Oz
Willow\Tara
Willow\Dopplegang Willow
Andrew\Anya
Buffy\Faith
Giles\Jenny
Gunn\Gwen
Lindsey\Lilah (they hate each other so much...it's irresistable!)
Buffy\Angel (at times...)
Clem\Spike

And of course...

Fat Tuffy!

Yeah, I'm the one who posted that thread; I always figured off camera soemtime between "WAY" and "Superstar".

Me, I really do think it happened after Tara blew the candle out. It seems pretty obvious that Willow and Tara were doing something that kept them together all night, for at least 2 different nights, as per the program. I think they were beginning to explore each other in terms of initial acts toward sex; if you will, "2nd base," etc. But not until NMR did they engage in "complete" sex. Oz was able to smell Willow all over Tara because they had hugged shortly before Tara ran into him, plus Tara was wearing Willow's sweater. But I would think that Oz would also recognize the smell of sex,, which he did not comment on.

Further, the magic they did obviously had overt sexual undertones, and there was some sort of connection between the two that was fairly erotic. Floating the rose, the voyage to the nether realms, both appeared to be heavily erotic and likely hastened the eventual actual act of sex- they already had a sexual connection from their magic- if we look at it less metaphorically.

So I guess I am throwing this old argument down once more. Have at it! Smile

Saba...great comments! I just read through some of the posts. Bored here and I know this thread has been around but I was impressed by your comments! Wink Just throwing in my 2 cents worth.

OH and I'm with Fluffy too...Buffy and Faith. That would have been a ratings booster (for even one ep)! Twisted Evil

Partly it's a personal quirk; I'm big on bathing/showering ebfore sex and pciture W&T's frist time "All-the-waying-it" as soemthing they both knew was going to happen in advance. (At least that's how I ficced it Laughing "Come on, baby, unwrap me.")

asto Fuffy/FLuffy/Faiffy etc I accept Joss's bleesing of "Bring your own subtext" and regard it as an established aprt of the backstory; Buffy strikes me as the type who'd get to thinking curiously about that and Faith strikes mea s the type who's very obliging to anyone she gets along with.

They both desired it, for sure. But did it happen until we really do know it happened? There's the rub. My feeling is that at the least they were fooling around, you know, like initial young lovers do. But whether it was complete, I am pretty sure not until Willow made her choice. I think...

Kitten Board does have one fanfic that I thought was well done, about what happened after Tara blew the candle out- I felt that it stayed true to the characters and their lack of real intimate knowledge of sex, but desire to finally have it. I forget its name, though; maybe it was just "And Tara blew the candle out."

DaddyCat - So Eliza isn't comfortable with lesbian storylines? Hmmm...I wonder what *that's* about? Confused

speaking of gay ships....does anyone else feel homosexuality isnt covered in tv enough? Joss has guts with his stories! thats why i love him soo!!!!!

gay faith? it could work!

Well Sab, that's why we have QaF.

faith could never be gay, i'm sorry she's too horny to be gay

Tara and Willow sure were!

I think Joss did a great job, until he completely f---ed it up, with presenting Tara and Willow. I also think that you will likely never see a similar portrayal of gay men on regular tv, snce the culture is not ready to accept it, regardless of how far we have come. Showing lesbian women is fine, since they play a role in like 90% of guys' fantasy- but homoerotic activity between men is still taboo. QaF is not a really great program in my mind, because it focuses too much on the mechanics of sex at the expense of the relationships. It almost seems to want to draw attention to itself for showing sex.

Willow/Tara, on the other hand, was marked by a near total reliance on the relationship, without delving into the mechanics of what they did in bed. This was, I think, a truly smart move, since it took the focus off the sex and put it where it belonged- on two incredibly interesting characters.

I cry everytime i see that episode where tara dies Crying or Very sad , i didnt really like the whole kennedy deal Evil or Very Mad she was annoying and not good enough for willow Wink

My favorite ships:

Buffy:

Willow/Tara
Willow/Kennedy
Buffy/Spike

Angel:

Cordelia/Angel
Fred/Gunn

Firefly:

Revolos/Kaylee (my reply, my fantasy dammit!) Wink
Mal/Inara
Wash/Zoe

This is an interesting article that shows how Willow was gay early on.

THE BIG GAY EXPLANATION ARTICLE+

Joss Whedon has always had a tendency to ignore everything he's written in the past, and always start each episode without feeling constrained by continuity. So often the show tends to contradict itself; Whedon writes a story element in which doesn't fit with past seasons, but is so good it has to stay. On the face of it, the unexpected coming out of Willow was one such; it didn't have anything to do with the first, second or third seasons of the show, and came as a bit of a non-sequitur. But I think the idea of Willow being lesbian must have been in the back of Joss Whedon's mind for a long time, because it does fit in with the earlier seasons. This is a reading of Season 1, 2 and 3 which makes sense. It's not to say that this was the way the show was written, but rather that's it the going back and tying up of loose ends which Joss Whedon has spoken of.

In Season 1, Willow's love life is dominated by Xander, or the lack of Xand. Ostensibly, this is a simple one-way romance; Willow loves Xander, Xander loves Willow but not in a sexual way. Looking back on it, in fact Willow is defined by wanting to be seen as 'normal' and 'straight', as she's in High School and doesn't want to stand out as different. Xander is the only man in her life who she loves, so of all men she thinks he's the only one she could really have a relationship with. It's also worth pointing out that Willow never acknowledges her real sexuality, not even to herself - she is repression girl. She doesn't feel drawn to any other men other than Xander because she needs to love a man before she can think about sleeping with him. In the whole season, Willow never seems attracted to men apart from Xander.

THE PROSPECT OF NORMALITY
In Season 2 Willow's desire for a heterosexual relationship continues, but she falls for Oz. It's clear she feels for Oz in much the same way as she feels for Xander, and that she really does love him. Oz is older and more experienced than Xander, and offers Willow the prospect of 'normality'. Throughout their relationship, the stress is always on the fact that Willow is now cooler, and more accepted, because she has a boyfriend in a band. But Willow still isn't seen as a sexual character; her relationship with Oz is almost completely chaste, with the emphasis on love rather than lust. In the episode 'Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered' (by Marti Noxon), Willow displays her sexual side in trying to seduce Xander; but she's under a spell, as are all the women in Sunnydale, presumably regardless of sexual orientation. Willow is bewitched into lusting after Xander, rather than just loving him.

Season 3 is characterized by three big developments in the character of Willow; an illicit relationship with Xander, the appearance of her evil doppleself, and losing her virginity. With Oz, Willow manages to obtain a place as one of the fairly cool people, and she's accepted as heterosexual. But being lesbian, she doesn't feel sexually attracted to Oz. She longs to have sex, but more to cement her place as 'straight' than through actual lust. But because she doesn't feel a sexual attraction to Oz, she turns to Xander, who coincidentally is unsatisfied with his relationship with Cordelia, albeit for very different reasons. But in the end Willow and Xander are just friends.

In the episodes 'The Wish' (by Marti Noxon) and 'Dopplegangland' (by Joss Whedon) we see what Willow would have been like as a vampire. And yes, she's gay, or at least 'kinda gay'. In this alternate reality, her relationship with Xander is much the same; while they seem to be together, Willow is drawn to other people, namely Angel and her non-evil alternate self. With Angel, Willow tortures him, perhaps inflicting revenge on men for their making her life as a human so difficult. There isn't necessarily a sexual feeling. In 'Dopplegangland', evil Willow is more obviously gay, what with the whole licking and touching she does of non-evil Willow. The most telling line, which might well have just been thrown in as an off-hand as joke, is when Buffy reassures Willow that a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the personality of the human they inhabit. 'Well, actually-' Angel cuts in, before changing his mind. The obvious implication is that Willow is 'kinda gay' herself. Vampire Willow, not having the constraints of being in High School and of trying to appear 'normal', feels free to do what and who she wants.

Evil Willow's relationship with Xander is not unlike an evil version of Will and Xander's relationship in Season 5 (post-gay), that is, it is not strictly sexual beyond the flirtatious. However, with Willow, and perhaps with Cordelia, evil Willow seems very sexual. At first this seems just a confusion with the usual vampiric hunger-lust, but consider this; almost invariably, vampires in Buffy kill the opposite sex. Sometimes we see a female vampire feeding on a woman, but we rarely, if ever, see a male vampire feeding on a man. But vampire Willow is automatically drawn to women. Vampirism and sex are always tangled together, so I think it's no accident that evil Willow prefers the same sex. The point about this is that it can be subconscious to the writers, as well as the fictional characters. No doubt Joss Whedon wanted to make evil Willow 'kinda gay', but in reality he made her completely gay.

GIRL WITH A BOYFRIEND
Willow is always trying to find acceptance, and losing her virginity she sees as an important part of this. When her relationship with Xander collapses, Willow guiltily returns to Oz; partly simply because she loves him, and partly because she wants to return to being a girl with a boyfriend. Only the first part is consciously motivating her, but the second part is still a force behind her actions. Willow loves Oz as a friend, but she also needs him as a boyfriend too. When Oz and Willow do finally get it on, sex is oddly put to one side. While with Buffy and Angel, and Xander with Cordelia/Faith, sex and lust was a key aspect, with Willow and Oz it's simply not a major concern. This fits in with the idea that Willow loves, but doesn't sexually desire, Oz.

POST-GAY
Season 4 sees the big change in Willow's life; the escape from High School. Now, Oz's beasty side becomes a main factor in the plot; while his relationship with Willow was characterized by love and affection, as a wolf Oz is different. In this season Oz turns away from Willow, in a similar way as Xander had turned away from Cordelia and turned to Faith. Oz's werewolf side is the simplified, primal aspect of his character; to go all Freudian, the wolf is his Id, or his subconscious. This aspect understands that the relationship between Willow and he is not sexual, and that he is not connecting with her in this way. So automatically the werewolf searches elsewhere; he finds a female werewolf, and finds the sexual attraction which was missing with Willow. Because of this, Oz cannot now control the werewolf side. The bestial part of his nature arises, and he can't satisfy it. He leaves, consciously to try and overcome his werewolf part, but subconsciously to try and reconcile himself to living a life with Willow without a sexual connection.

When Willow loses Oz, she loses a friend, and someone she loves. But she doesn't lose her soulmate, because the relationship she has with Oz cannot be any deeper than that she has with, for example, Xander. In Tara, Willow finds her soulmate, and someone with whom she can be completely honest and free. It's only when Willow is free of High School and in love with another woman that she can finally come out as gay, not just to others but more importantly to herself. Tara has to be Willow's only true love, because she is the only person who was capable of making Willow understand herself, more even than her own doppleganger could. When Willow says that Tara is the only person she has ever opened up to and been completely honest with, she's not exaggerating.

I forgot one of my fave relatoinships

Wesley/Lilah

I wanted to activate this thread again as a result of a letter I found on SciFi.com, which seems to indicate that a lot of the crap people have said about the death of Tara may be less than truth. Here is the letter:

<
These are not the actions of an actor looking to leave the show. Unlike all the other major characters killed on Buffy, Amber Benson was not looking to leave—instead, she wanted to increase her role on the show. It was Joss Whedon's decision—and his alone—to remove Tara from the show.>>

Which is completely in line with my comment that it was likely AMber was preparing to locate more work since she was told she was going to be killed off, and that any comment by Joss about having her back in S7, at least as tara, was hogwash- in fact, in another interview when he was asked about Amber coming back, but not as Tara, he refused to comment at all. This led to speculation that they might bring her back in some other role- which Amber was smart enough to turn down. Along with First tara.

Just because Amber hadn't wanted to leave the show before S-6 doersn't in itself mean she didn't have other work commitments by the time S-7 had actually started. (I think that's evry likely.)It also doesn't mean that Amber and Joss might not havce been coming to at eolast possible terms but that 20th TV/Fox undermined it with a financial or scheduling p[osition. (Not impossible but then not bloody likely either.)

I still get the feeling all Joss ever mentioned to AMber was FirstTara, and, out of consideration for a large part of her fandom (I've read the dialog and it creeps me out) and recalling what Robia went thru playing The First, AB wisely turned it down.

Joss's claim of wanting somehow to bring Tara back in some real sense; the way his mind squirms about, he probably did ahve an idea like that. But, for the same reason, even if Amber had agreed to come back he still might have decided not to do it. So even if he ahd offerred RealTara as bait to get AMber for FirstTara, (and I'm sure he never mentioned it to her or she'd have said as much) she might ahve been hooked then tossed in the bucket and forgotten.

"Ahfterrrr" all, the man is both an artiste and an auteur, one cannot expect him to be bound by the expectations of consistency and truthfulness under which we lesser mortals are constrained, can one?

Wek\ll, Amber had said in another interview that if she signed to come back for S7 in anyway, she would have to contractually do whatever they asked her to, and even if they promised her that they would have herback, there was no actual guarantee that they would bring Tara back. So far as I can tell, not a single one of her fans disputes that she did the right thing by not coming back. As for Joss, I am sure he has million ideas that play out but whrether or not he implements them is another thing, especially since he is senstitive to how people view characters- remember, Tara was not supposed to be a long-time deal, just a short arc- but then Seth left for good, etc...

Oooh, oooh, ooh!
I just thought of Failah, watching this vid
http://www.slayerverse.net/tanet/net_buffy_us/index.php?navi=news.php&id=10993
and it's my new favorite Gay Ship!

I think I once saw a Failah story at dymphnanet or soemplace like that.