A change in thinking about Kennedy

FlipperTHREAD STARTER9 posts in this thread

#1 · Jul 29, 2004

Okay, I am a major Willow/Tara shipper and I am still highly upset over Joss's decision to kill Tara, but inasmuch as there is nothing I can do about it, I have to look at S7 in a new light. And initially I really really did not like Kennedy, seeing in her the anti-Tara, which was really how she was designed to be presented. But a funny thing happened. As I watched her in the critical episode "The Killer in Me" I found myself beginning to see her very differently. Yes, Kennedy has, up to the time she managed to get Willow to the bar (and Willow would not have gone if she truly did not want to) been incredibly forward. She has signalled her interest to Willow quite boldly, in keeping with her personality. So we tend to see her as aggressive and perhaps not respectful of Willow.

But in the bar scene, I find myself reading things a bit different. Sure, Kennedy resorted to subterfuge to get Willow there, but when Willow began to walk away, Kennedy tried a bit of backing down (along with a bit of bedroom eyes). But where she won me was when Willow tried to tell her about loving one woman and how private they are, uh, were- and if you watch Kennedy during that moment you see real pain cross her face as she begins to understand what Tara meant to Willow, and perhaps that she may not be equal. From that point, I find it interesting to watch the interplay of Iyari's and Aly's facial expressions, body language and words as they probe each other subtly. Little smile from Aly indicates a hit for Kennedy. And later, Kennedy does not run from the problems that occur; she does not give up on Willow and in fact helps to bring her back, also understanding for the first time what a real force magic is.

I don't want to, folks, but I am liking her more. Of course, the pierced tongue helps...

fiatlux1 post in this thread

#2 · Jul 29, 2004

hmmmmmmm.... to be honest, I really don't give Kennedy/Willow much thought one way or the other. (I'm odd like that, I just go with what Joss gives me for the most part.) But after reading that, I'm going to rewatch that episode and take a closer look.

Otts' First Angel & Only Hottie
Hawk's Harem Hottie #69
Poobah Pretty #3
[image]
Love is the triumph of imagination over intelligence.
~ H. L. Mencken

Ikhana1 post in this thread

#3 · Jul 29, 2004

::LOVES KENNEDY::
I dunno why.

[image]
President of the Doyle Club

Fogey5 posts in this thread

#4 · Jul 29, 2004

Well not a change in view for me. I always liked Kennedy. I thought Tara was nicer and the W/T relationship more romantic but I never had a problem with Kennedy, despite the tongue stud Wink . I would have disliked Kennedy if she had been like Tara!

I remember the scene you describe and thought it was well played.
In W/T & W/K We had 3 good actresses portraying 2 markedly different relationships.

Some fans disliked Oz for replacing Xander, some disliked Tara Evil or Very Mad for replacing Oz & some disliked Kennedy for replacing Tara. Common thread here? some fans dislike changes in relationships?

[image] Fogeys apparent motto: If you cant dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit![image]

Otts1 post in this thread

#5 · Jul 29, 2004

For having met Iyari (and had myself photographed with her) Razz I can only admire that such a petite woman (she's barely more than five feet, I think) could project so much power as Kennedy. That really made me like Kennedy from the first moment on.

And besides, after the whole Dark Willow incident, Willow was so wracked with remorse and so timid about letting herself feel that she needed someone who would take charge, who would tell her it's OK.

[image]
[image]
Official DarkWillow Twistie: "You're always saving everyone. It's kinda pesky."
Charlie of Otts' Angels #1 through 6
Sellthesunrise's Shaolin Master

magikangel131 post in this thread

#6 · Jul 29, 2004

Flipper9 posts in this thread

#7 · Jul 29, 2004

It's a good point, but at the point that Willow and Kennedy are in the bar that dynamic has not really come into play, Otts. Kennedy might be making her play for Willow but at that point doesn't really know much about her, outside of the few things she mentions and the fact that Willow really is pretty, speaks oddly and has lickable freckles. At this point, it is mainly about sex, not love- not yet. And for Willow, there is a real natural fear of moving forward, both for in terms of Tara and because of what she had become. It is not until later that Kennedy lets Willow know that she will keep her grounded, at what I think is the first time they sleep together.

And yes, we become confortable with the characters we see, and we hate change- so it is natural to not like the person who replaced the one you loved- in my case Tara- which may be why it took so long for me to come around on Kennedy. I utterly love Tara, and still think Kennedy is a transitional relationship for Willow- but she has some very good qualities.

Trisha2 posts in this thread

#8 · Jul 29, 2004

I think that the whole WIllow situation is something that Joss is famous for...painful. He got us comfortable with a character, he puts in another one that makes us think if the first one was good for the person and if the new one is better? In Willow's case, They brought OZ in while WIllow was still pining over Xander who was 'dating' Cordelia.

I think think that Oz was very good for WIllow because she had to stop pining over Xander who wouldn't give her a second glance. Then, once we fell in love with Oz, we were Introduced to Tara. It was weird at first ahat with the whole 'gay' thing. It was hard to accept that one of our favorite characters had turned gay.

I think that Tara was very good for Willow, and that Oz was great, too, but he had some stuff to work out. Once we fell completely in love with Tara, she was, again, taken away from us (and WIllow, of course). I think that Tara was a very big step in Willow's life. Tara made her step out of her shell and she and WIllow had a very spiritual connection.

After a long time of watching WIllow be in pain and agony of no Tara, we get this forward SIT who is extrememly different from our beloved Tara. Someone who we instantly hate , just like the others who came into the show and Willow's heart. I think that this time, we didn't have time to warm up to Kennedy. SHe was put in too late in the show.

All in my humble opinion, so don't kill me please....

Trisha2 posts in this thread

#9 · Jul 29, 2004

I think that the whole WIllow situation is something that Joss is famous for...painful. He got us comfortable with a character, he puts in another one that makes us think if the first one was good for the person and if the new one is better? In Willow's case, They brought OZ in while WIllow was still pining over Xander who was 'dating' Cordelia.

I think think that Oz was very good for WIllow because she had to stop pining over Xander who wouldn't give her a second glance. Then, once we fell in love with Oz, we were Introduced to Tara. It was weird at first ahat with the whole 'gay' thing. It was hard to accept that one of our favorite characters had turned gay.

I think that Tara was very good for Willow, and that Oz was great, too, but he had some stuff to work out. Once we fell completely in love with Tara, she was, again, taken away from us (and WIllow, of course). I think that Tara was a very big step in Willow's life. Tara made her step out of her shell and she and WIllow had a very spiritual connection.

After a long time of watching WIllow be in pain and agony of no Tara, we get this forward SIT who is extrememly different from our beloved Tara. Someone who we instantly hate , just like the others who came into the show and Willow's heart. I think that this time, we didn't have time to warm up to Kennedy. SHe was put in too late in the show.

All in my humble opinion, so don't kill me please....

Flipper9 posts in this thread

#10 · Jul 30, 2004

Tara was certainly the love of Willow's life, Trisha, and it is very hard to move on from such a relationship when it ends, for whatever reason. However, where I disagree with you is that you said that there was a long time of pain and agony with no Tara; in fact, the time frame is really only around 3-4 months if I have the timing right, and given Willow's time in England, and then home, she has not had any real time to grieve- which is why her visit to Tara's gravesite is so important. There is little time to develop Kennedy, but Joss specifically wrote her to give Willow something positive by the end of the show.

What we do know is that several weeks after Chosen, Willow and Kennedy are in Sao Paulo and Rio, so they are still together.

Oh, and I honestly think the clues of Willow's sexuality were there early in the series- but I've written this extensively in the Gay SHips thread if you want to take a look.

DaddyCatALSO4 posts in this thread

#11 · Jul 30, 2004

I end up stricking myself on the point Nikki Scoott had in _Bite Me- (S-6 edition) a pci of Aly in the "overhauls" and the natural hair colr captioned "The First Season Willow we all fell in love with."

which is one reason i fell so hard for Tara ; she made Our Will so happy. (I even ahve my MAry Sue narrator at one point admit to Tara she's actually his biggest rush and partly for that reason.)

But even before Kennedy was introduced I was positive on the diea. Simply put (and all my jokes about "charity whocka-whocka" aside) I knew Willow woudl eneed soem TLC and Kennedy may not be perfect, may nto be a more than 2-3 year 'shiop, but she's present and able and I knew all along I wanted Willow having happiness or soemthing like it, howver it's achieved.

"De vay you valked vas t'thorny, t'through no fault uff your own. But as de rain enters de soil and de river enters de sea, all our dreamce flow to a predestint endt. Haff peace now, my son."

Fogey5 posts in this thread

#12 · Jul 30, 2004

Flipper9 posts in this thread

#13 · Jul 30, 2004

Fogey has a good point, that we were not given much time to warm to her, and her persona was not one that was sweet, like Tara. BUt DCA also raises a good point, that Willow would need to have a support person present, for the difficult times ahead, as Buffy was becoming more "executive" in her thinking and had to spend less time with her. So it is good for Willow to have a person to act as her kite string, you know?

Meckare2 posts in this thread

#14 · Jul 30, 2004

Tara was brought in to fast. And she didn't stand up to Willow's former loves, which were all sweet and beautiful. But I understand her as a part of Willow's character development. And being in love myself, I know its an exhausting experience. Willow's had enough dramatic larger than life love, followed by intence heartbreak. Some relaxed companinshio with Kennedy ( Despite her irratating tendancies) is something she deserves. Joss was giving her a well needed break. But one season was not enough time for us to accept this. What can you do?

There were gay clues for Will in prior seasons. They knew what was coming. In fact, I heard they were originally considering making Xander gay, and went with Will instead.

[image]

OfficialFredTwistie:I've been trying to make an enchilada out of tree bark. There is work to be done.

Flipper9 posts in this thread

#15 · Jul 30, 2004

You mean Kennedy was brought in too fast? I think you have a typo, maybe? Smile

DaddyCatALSO4 posts in this thread

#16 · Jul 31, 2004

MEckare; yeah my idea in different words.

Flipper; I think you're right.

Oddly, I imagined, as soon as I saw the characetrs, that both Willow and Dr. Kerrie Weaver woudl end up taking at the very least a trip to the One-Way Tavern, if not switching over complertely.

"De vay you valked vas t'thorny, t'through no fault uff your own. But as de rain enters de soil and de river enters de sea, all our dreamce flow to a predestint endt. Haff peace now, my son."

Flipper9 posts in this thread

#17 · Jul 31, 2004

You lost me, DCA- did not get the connection, since I do not know who Dr. Kerrie Weaver is. Help!

Meckare2 posts in this thread

#18 · Jul 31, 2004

Yes, Kennedy...my bad!

I also did not get that reference. :S

So, thoughts on gay Xander?

[image]

OfficialFredTwistie:I've been trying to make an enchilada out of tree bark. There is work to be done.

Flipper9 posts in this thread

#19 · Jul 31, 2004

Gay Xander- played for laughs, not serious, I think. Andrew was played for may gay subtext. Xander loved woman, too much at times!

Fogey5 posts in this thread

#20 · Jul 31, 2004

I don't think a Gay Xander surrounded by hot young women would have fit the dynamics of the show. Buffy, Willow, Cordy, Anya, Tara, Joyce, Amy, Kendra, later episodes Dawn, even the vampires like Darla, Dru & Harmony, etc. They needed a heterosexual guy in their age bracket hanging around to balance that group. If the cast had been heavier into showing a male group, then maybe Xander could have been friendlier with Larry or Andrew. But a "Girl Power" show is not the place to show case a Gay Male Character IMHO.

[image] Fogeys apparent motto: If you cant dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit![image]

TheFirst2 posts in this thread

#21 · Aug 1, 2004

I would have LOVED to see gay Xander - although he would most likely get into a relationship with Clem, as Dawn said... Rolling Eyes ... That would have been fun.

"From Beneath You, I DEVOUR!"...
Yeah, right.
OFFICIAL BUFFY SPANISH VERSION USELESS NOTE: Mr. Pointy? Mr Pointy? Oh, you mean Señor Pointy!!!

nerdyknox2 posts in this thread

#22 · Aug 1, 2004

I think the word you were looking for was SCARY not fun TheFirst....or that would have been freaky! And anyway was Clem Gay?

[image][image]
Official Knox Twistie: "Is that an issue? Is, is my life in peril, boss? King?"
Keeper of the animals with frikkin lasers attached to their heads

Flipper9 posts in this thread

#23 · Aug 1, 2004

Hey, we got a Xander thread, guys and gals. This here one is for Kennedy, who was definitely gay and always was. She was wired that way.

So, if she and Willow are in Brazil, here is the question: what are they doing? And, will it last?

Fogey5 posts in this thread

#24 · Aug 1, 2004

Myth1 post in this thread

#25 · Aug 1, 2004

Fogey.... Rolling Eyes

FYI - Dr. Kerri Weaver is in charge of the ER on the series ER. After what...7 seasons?... we learned that she was gay. You have to ask Daddykat again why he brought her up because I don't recall any hints that she may have been gay until it was there in our faces.

[image]
Myth
Hawk's Harem Hottie #5
Femme Fatale
Keeper of the Flame - Minister of Finance
HOP ON LITTLE MAMA
Proud Pinholder of Something

nerdyknox2 posts in this thread

#26 · Aug 2, 2004

Probably drinking from coconuts in some paradise beachy thing in a classy but kinda hutty looking hotel.....

[image][image]
Official Knox Twistie: "Is that an issue? Is, is my life in peril, boss? King?"
Keeper of the animals with frikkin lasers attached to their heads

DaddyCatALSO4 posts in this thread

#27 · Aug 3, 2004

Fogey; In Brazil they call it Carnevale or soemthing like that (sp?). Thye could be sarehcing down new SLayers, getting magic lessons for Willow, maybe just unwinding before Willow goes to get ehr MAster's In Business Information Systems at the University of the Central Greater Midwest or wherever.

Myth; to be blunt, I think the so-called clues to Wilow's gayness are 8 aprts 20/20 hindsight, 2 aprts wishful thinking,a nd a soupc+on of PC for taste. Willow prefers women, the lives, sexual and otherwise, of people, real or fictiuonal, don't need to be "explained" IMHO.

As to both Kerrie and Willow, I was never picking up on scripted clues; it was just my wroter's imagination thinking they'd make good chacracters for lesbian storylines- I onc ehad this picture of , for _ER_ fans, Kerrie's friendship with Jeanie Boulet going that driection.

(actaull;y, inspired by a TV Guide piece which drew BtVS-ER aprallels, my first attempt at a fic was a crossover whit Willow and Kerrie both being on different airliners being forced down by weather at a small regional airport and...I abandoend that after about 3 pages whne I realized how pointless it was but I did ahve one good Willowism in it, "Either we share some unusual hair genes or our stylists were study buddies in beauty school.")

As a possible other hook re Kennedy discussion; okay Iyari is Hispanic but thatb deosn't mean anything about Kennedy's ethnicity. Look at all the variety of parts Hector Elizondo plays. Was there ever a clue to Kennedy's national origin?

Mex. '01
Darla:Well you're certainly like Drusilla described. (voiceover;imbecile)
Harmony;And you seem like you could keep her,Spike, and Angel from killing each other (vo;megabitch)
Both glare then giggle
D: Hey, did you come here for dinner too?
H:Actually I felt like dancing, this place usually hops but tonight it's deader than we are.

TheFirst2 posts in this thread

#28 · Aug 8, 2004

I think the spelling is "Carnaval" (don't look at me lke that - at least in spanish it is!)

"From Beneath You, I DEVOUR!"...
Yeah, right.
OFFICIAL BUFFY SPANISH VERSION USELESS NOTE: Mr. Pointy? Mr Pointy? Oh, you mean Señor Pointy!!!

DaddyCatALSO4 posts in this thread

#29 · Aug 9, 2004

First; In RIo they speak Portuguese Laughing ;seriously one of the biggets differences between Spanish and Portuguese is the spelling and I don't feel like looking it up right now Confused .

Mex. '01
Darla:Well you're certainly like Drusilla described. (voiceover;imbecile)
Harmony;And you seem like you could keep her,Spike, and Angel from killing each other (vo;megabitch)
Both glare then giggle
D: Hey, did you come here for dinner too?
H:Actually I felt like dancing, this place usually hops but tonight it's deader than we are.

Flipper9 posts in this thread

#30 · Aug 16, 2004

Bump- I am referring some from Jetwolf.com to this thread.

Fogey5 posts in this thread

#31 · Aug 16, 2004